I came across this website by accident and am shocked...


Rick Brentlinger Answers -


I offer this email exchange because it is typical of the hundreds of emails I get from Christians who take me to task for defending gays and lesbians.


Lisa writes: "I came across this website by accident and am shocked that anyone reading the Bible can condone any form of sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman.

The three forms that would encompass would be fornication (sex before marriage), adultery (sex outside of marriage) and homosexulaity (sex between people of the same sex). The Bible teaches that God can change all struggles people face and that includes homosexuality.

It also warns those living an unrepentant homosexual life (different from someone struggling and looking for a way out) will not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 6v9). "Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals nor sodomites will inherit the kingdom of God.

Did you tear that section out of the Bible? I advise you to repent and know both God's love and transforming power. As a Christian you are supposed to submit to God's Word and agree with his views on standards for living. He will help you.

I would never want to stand before God and pick and choose which Scriptures I liked /disliked: it is all God's Word. God loves homosexuals but as with the case of Mary Magdalene he wants to change hearts -he had compassion on her but also said' go away and sin no more'.

Sexual sin of any kind is very serious. May the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ cause you to find your identity in Him in His Word and not in struggles of the flesh. However difficult - God can change a person's heart."

Rick Responds: Thanks for taking time to write to me. Your comments are appreciated even if we do not agree. I believe you have the wrong idea about marriage in the Bible. This Link explains my position.

https://www.gaychristian101.com/Marriage-in-the-Bible.html

Modern marriages do NOT resemble Adam and Eve's marriage

  1. Adam and Eve were naked before, during and after their marriage "ceremony," Genesis 2:24, 3:7.

  2. Adam and Eve did not have an ordained minister officiate at the ceremony because they were the only two people on earth at that time.

  3. Adam and Eve did not have any guests, caterers, photographers or family members at the "ceremony."

  4. Adam and Eve did not exchange wedding rings.

  5. Adam and Eve did not recite wedding vows to each other.

  6. Adam and Eve did not have a church wedding in a church building.

  7. Adam and Eve did not pray for God's blessing on their marriage.

  8. No city, county, state or federal office gave Adam and Eve a wedding certificate.

  9. No church or religion gave Adam and Eve a wedding certificate.

How do we know these facts about Adam and Eve's marriage? The same way anti-gay Christians allege that they know there are no gay marriages in the Bible, because none of the listed items are explicitly mentioned in the Bible concerning the marriage of Adam and Eve.

Ancient marriage was based on the partners committing to each other


Marriage in Bible times consisted of the partners leaving father and mother and committing to each other in a way they were not committed to anyone else.

Things hadn't changed much four thousand years after Adam and Eve, in the first century AD, when Jesus walked the earth. In Palestine, a Jewish wedding usually involved the consent of the bride's family and the groom's family. Often there were no papers attesting to the marriage.

The wedding ceremony in New Testament times was a family affair, involving feasting and a party, sometimes lasting a week, if the parents were wealthy enough to afford that, John 2:1-11.

The point is, marriage in the Bible can only be accurately understood in the context of ancient cultures and customs, many of which are obsolete today.

Is there any evidence of an actual gay marriage in the bible?


IF by marriage, you mean a union sanctioned in writing by civil and/or religious authorities, then the answer is NO, there probably were no gay marriages in the Bible.

Of course, if we're only accepting as valid, marriages which were sanctioned in writing by religious or civil authorities who lived at the same time as the Biblical married couple, then MOST heterosexual marriages in the Bible are NOT marriages by that standard.

Did same sex couples in Bible times partner together as a committed couple in some way? I think the answer to that is Yes, although their partnership probably looked different and functioned differently than same sex partnerships today.

Since approximately 5% of the human population is same sex oriented, certainly for as long as there have been human beings, there have been partnered couples in one form or another.

Did those partnered couples enjoy the same kind of partnership we think of today, jointly owning a house and possibly a business, living together as a vital part of the community, with their partnership recognized by the community? Probably not in most cases.

Is there any evidence of an actual gay marriage in the bible?


IF by marriage, you are NOT referring to a union recognized in writing (with a wedding certificate) by civil authorities and religious authorities but instead, you're referring to the kinds of marriages affirmed in the Bible, like Adam and Eve, Isaac and Rebekah, David and Jonathan or the Centurion and his beloved partner then YES, there probably are several gay marriages in the Bible.

Gay marriages in the Bible include the marriage partnership of Jonathan and David, which was recognized as a sexual partnership by King Saul himself, 1 Samuel 18:21, 20:30, and the marriage partnership of the centurion and his beloved servant, Matthew 8:5-10 and Luke 7:1-10.

May God bless you abundantly as you walk the path of His purpose for your life.

Your brother in Christ, Rick Brentlinger

Lisa Responds: Hi Rick, thank you for your reply. I have read your link and recognise that at times the truest meaning of Scripture is best understood by historical distance. For example, in Revelation Ch3: 15 Jesus rebukes the Church of Laodicea for being lukewarm - neither hot nor cold.

Laodicea was a prosperous banking city that met at the intersection of both a warm body of water and a cooler body of water. God is very careful in His use of words and it certainly adds richness to the initial reading today. But historical distance can never contradict such an explicit verse as I gave in 1Cor 6:9.

Jonathon and David had a special friendship but nowhere does it say they were sexually involved with each other. If God thought homosexuality was permissible wouldn't there be an example for us in Scripture that is tangible.

The Bible speaks of fleeing all forms of sexual immorality - again 1Cor 6:9 is there - how do you ignore it?

I regard all sexual sin as being wrong - sometimes homosexuality is highlighted as being the most grave which it isn't scripturally speaking - yet all sin is sin when one reads God's Word. You rely heavily on cultural influences - yet God's moral truth is surely unchangeable and not effected by culture.

May the Lord speak to you and again how do you get round 1Cor 6:9 - it is in now way impacted by any cultural influence - it is God's Word and means exactly what he says. In Christian love, Lisa

Rick Responds: Thanks for your interesting questions. Would it surprise you to learn that most of the professing church for the last 2000 years has not understood the meaning of 1 Cor 6:9 the way you understand it?

https://www.gaychristian101.com/Malakoi.html

Would it surprise you to learn that most Christians for 2000 years did not understand the Greek words malakoi and arsenokoitai in 1 Cor 6:9 as a reference to homosexuals?

https://www.gaychristian101.com/Define-Arsenokoites.html

As far as all homosexual unions being sinful, I think you're missing the point God makes in the Bible. In the Bible, a marriage is not the civil or religious ceremony.

In the Bible, a marriage is when flesh joins flesh, when two people unite their lives and bodies together and keep themselves unto each other, till death do them part.

This principle is clearly stated by God in 1 Cor 7:1-9. To avoid fornication, people should be partnered. If you're among the 95% of heterosexuals on planet earth, then men find a wife and women find a husband.

Yet the same principle applies to the 5% of homosexuals. To avoid the fornication and spiritual chaos caused by folks who have sex outside a committed relationship, the Biblical principle is that same sex attracted men should partner with a man and same sex attracted women should partner with a woman.

https://www.gaychristian101.com/does-1-cor-72-exclude-gays-and-lesbians-from-marriage.html

I wonder if you are aware of the sexual licentiousness of many single, conservative Protestant Christians, many of whom view gays and lesbians as having sinful lifestyles?

https://www.gaychristian101.com/isnt-it-all-about-sex-for-you-gays-and-lesbians.html

I hope this makes my position on 1 Cor 6:9 more clear.

Your brother in Christ, Rick Brentlinger


Comments for I came across this website by accident and am shocked...

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Mar 17, 2010
 Wow! Wow! WOW!!!
by: Anonymous

Everyday I am in awe of your postings Rick! Thank you for not being on the defense when faced with attack and being damned to hell! I'm learning so much from you!!!!
Mar 17, 2010
 Thanks for the encouragement
by: Rick Brentlinger

Its always nice to know that someone is being blessed by what I post on this website. I appreciate you and your enthusiasm. You are a blessing!
Mar 20, 2010
 Pastor Rick, in your excellent book...
by: Sparrow

In you book, Gay Christian 101, you said it best when you cited Jonathan Swift: "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a belief he was never reasoned into."

"There are none so blind as they who WILL not see."
Mar 20, 2010
 Thank You!!!
by: Alice

Your web site is a blessing. You have all the relevant research in one place. I'm hetero but minister to a lot of gay people. I found you as I was trying to find sites to send to a lesbian commenter on another blog(nakedpastor.com).

She was asking questions of other commenters and of course someone was telling her, with Romans 1 to back him up, that all homosexuals were going to hell... end of story.

Fortunately, she and her partner have a wonderful pastor, but she had never heard the correct interpretation of Romans 1 and thought it was talking about relationships. I gave her and the other 1000 or so readers a day on naked pastor, your site.

You've made my life a lot easier. With every thing in one place I don't have to hunt around for answers. May you be mightily blessed for the work you have done to give peace to our gay brothers and sisters. Shalom -Alice
Mar 21, 2010
 Sharing the Link is greatly appreciated!
by: Rick Brentlinger

Thanks so much Alice, for sharing a Link to this website on nakedpastor.com

I hope others will follow your example and help get the word out by posting a Link of blogs all over the blogosphere. The more people know about the helpful information here, the more we can bless hurting lesbians and gays.

And I appreciate your efforts to share your knowledge with others. You are much appreciated!
Apr 24, 2010
 Adam and Eve
by: Anonymous

It amuses me how Christians are scolding you for reading too much into the story of David and Jonathan, but then they read all sorts of things into Adam and Eve's story.

If they want to play that game, then Adam and Eve never had sex either. It only says he "knew" her.

And the law of Moses only prohibited a man from laying with another man "as a woman"; men were perfectly free to...

I'll stop there since this is a family forum.
May 18, 2010
 we will see...
by: Anonymous

well the only way i guess we will find out who is wrong and who is right is on Judgement day!!!
Revelation 20:11-13 (New King James Version)

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

its gonna happen!!!! and the bible says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the father...

i hope all of the homosexuals practicing homosexuality with such blatant disreguard to the bible and what it teaches are prepared to meet Jesus, and the great white throne!!!
May 18, 2010
 Why do you ignore context?
by: Rick Brentlinger

To Anonymous-

Your willing ignorance of context - your adamant refusal to factor in the context of the alleged anti-gay verses will also come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, 1 Corinthians 3.

God isn't pleased at your ignorance of context buddy!

because the way that you judge others will be the way that you will be judged, and you will be evaluated by the standard with which you evaluate others. -Matthew 7:2, International Standard Version
Sep 05, 2010
 Getting the facts straight
by: Kevin S.

Dear Anonymous,

It seems consistent that those who wish to say a lot to condemn others, most often say it anonymously. If you've got a point, be a man or women and state your name and your point. Otherwise, shut up!

I also find it curious that so many people who condemn and criticize Rick on his website are reading his website. What makes a straight anti-gay person go on an openly gay christian site to comment. Maybe they just like to air their opinion because no one else in their life cares what they think.

Maybe they're searching for truth and want to be convinced of another point of view. Whatever the case, how seriously can you take their comments when they are not confident enough to give a name. Maybe they're afraid someone will discover they're reading a Gay website.

To be theologically correct, we believers will not be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. Our works as children of God will be weighted and crowns awarded at the Judgment seat of Christ. As believers and children of God, our sins were judged 2000 years ago in the body of Jesus the Christ as he hung on a cross at Calvary. When he died "it was finished..."

When he rose from the dead, it was complete. The sting of death was taken away. We will live with him for eternity. That's enough to make a Methodist raise their hands and shout.(I mean no disrespect to my Methodist brethren).

Once again, if you're(Anonymous) going to quote and use God's Word, study it, know it, get it right. Otherwise you look and sound foolish. This subject of homosexuality is a difficult one. It requires more than just "Sunday School theology"

You got to do some hard studying. Thanks to Rick B. who does the in depth studying we have answers rather than opinions.I Encourage Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous to go back and do some homework in the word of God.
Sep 13, 2010
 Bad attitude and bad eschatology
by: kevin S.

Dear Mr. Or Mrs. Anonymous,

I feel compelled to write a brief Bible doctrine lesson for you. Whoever is your Bible teacher needs to go to the local Christian bookstore and purchase a bible doctrine book. There are many very good ones. May I suggest "Bible Doctrines by Dr. Mark Cambron.

Now to the Issue at hand. Rev. 20; 11-13 deals with the Great White Throne Judgment. This judgment is not for believers. Their (believers) works in the Spirit as children of God will be judged for rewards not punishment at the Judgment seat of Christ.

Our (believers) works were judged on Calvary in the body of our savior Jesus the Christ. When He (Jesus) said, "it is finished" the work of atonement was finished. The price for all sin had been paid for all time. When we receive Him (Jesus) as our Savior the atonement is credited to us. There need be no more payment for sin or judgment for sin.

The people being judged in Rev. 20:11-13 are those who have not received the redemption of the shed blood of Jesus. If you don't understand that major doctrine of the faith my friend you need to read the book of Galatians and the Gospel of John.

Rather than reading Revelations as a book of spiritual meat, you need to read the Gospel of John and see and understand that salvation is by grace through faith. Each time I read your comments, I shudder at the misuse of the verses in Revelation.

While I can't judge your heart, your words come off as mean, condemning and hate-filled. You sound angry and hurt. We gay Christians understand hurt but our (Christians) response to those who use and abuse us needs to be love and grace. That honors our Lord and shows love to our accusers.

While I understand how hard it is to read things on this site that so conflict with what you believe and may have been taught, please judge the new ideas on their scriptural merit. Be a student of the scriptures. Go research the new info you read here. Test it, rather than what someone told you was so. It will require some hard work on your part. "Yes," even your spiritual leader can be wrong. He or she is human and can give into bias.

One last point. Step up to the plate and stop being "ANONYMOUS." I assume you have a name.
Aug 24, 2011
 Let's start with love
by: Anonymous

The truth is, I would not dare to get in a debate on the Bible. However, I do believe the Bible says all sorts of things, such as, an eye for an eye and does it not say somewhere that adulterers are to be stoned to death?

Any way my point is, to me love is love and isn't that what it is all about? Isn't the whole idea of Christianity, Jesus, and God all about love and understanding?

To me love is love. It does not matter if it is between a man and woman or two women or two men. Let's start there and maybe we can all get some peace.
Aug 30, 2011
 Wow
by: Ray

First off... I have heard preachers teach on heaven, hell and purgatory, some sort of third option God can apply at judgement. I have heard preachers teach on how God wants us all to be financially blessed. Apparently, they would have you believe that God wants you to be financially blessed more than spiritually blessed. I have heard preachers say that Jesus is not God. I have even heard preaching that teaches the exact date of the end of the world. Now comes a doctrine stating that homosexuality, within the confines of a 'committed relationship' is fine by God. It goes to show that one can really use scriptures to teach just about anything.

Jeremiah 31 as well as Hebrews 8 teach us about the current covenant God has made with his children. Where he has written his laws on our hearts, and we no longer need to be taught Gods words.

Reading some of the context in this site has made me feel bad for the world. 1 Timothy 4:1 comes to mind. "The spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It's not bad enough that Mr.Brentlinger has corrupted Gods truth to suit his needs but that he also sees it fit to teach others to do the same.

I guess if one can be homosexual without being effeminate one might not be committing sin is what Mr.B will tell u. 1Corinthians 6:9. Or that in Leviticus 18 when God says do not lay with a man as one lies with a woman, God only refers to this in context of worship to Molech. But MrB will tell you that Adam and Eve had no minister, when it was God almighty himself who joined them together. Or that Adam and Eves marriage does not imply that only male n female can marry, completely ignoring Mark 10 where God says "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let no man separate. Verses 6-10

Some things I know to be true are that all things work for good for those who believe in Christ. That God wills that we all be saved, And that today is the day of salvation. So I urge you today to repent of your sin and choose to follow the Lord Jesus. Not what man teaches, but rather what Jesus has written in your heart. Yearn to hear the words "well done thou good and faithful servant" and fear the words "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."

Rick's comment: Masterful job of ignoring everything I wrote and then restating your erroneous views. Yes, of course we all need to get saved. Yes, of course, salvation is ONLY by grace alone through faith alone in the shed blood of Christ alone.

But your view that the Bible condemns gays - it's clear that you haven't proved that - not even close.
Jul 03, 2012
 False.
by: Anonymous

This is all completely false teaching. God is very clear in the bible about what is right and what is not. All Christians face their own personal battles, however, what Jesus taught us is to humble ourselves and seek God and the deliverance only He can give us from our sin.

God does not have a "sin severity" scale. To Him sin is sin and He hates it all because He is truth and life which is the antithesis of sin. That being said, homosexuality is not worse than any other sin but what you are doing here is wrong and I need to tell you this as a fellow Christian. You are distorting the bible and calling "good and right" that which is evil.

Rick's comment: Your false accusation against me falls into the category of bluster and blarney. You are the one who distorts the Bible to serve your own viewpoint.

I want to caution you because by creating this website and persuading others to embrace and glorify sin you are holding yourself to be held to higher accountability from God. Just as pastors will be held to a higher standard and have to give an account for the souls in their congregation, the Internet has lead to the creation of "virtual pastors". You don't want to be accountable for all the people you are leading astray.

Rick's comment: It is easy to make false accusations without any proof, without backing up your assertion. Do you remember Thou shalt not bear false witness and wherefore putting away lying let every man speak truth with his neighbor?

Everyone has their own sins, why heap more on to the pile. Our nation and world has contined to spiral downward into darkness because Christians have refused to stand up and call out what is evil in fear of retribution. But this ends now, as a Christian, I love you, but this is wrong and evil.

Rick's comment: I get so many comments like yours, full of faux indignation, faux righteousness. Start obeying 2 Timothy 2:15 pal. It will change your perspective.
Aug 30, 2012
 Thank you for this website
by: Peter Jackson

Thanks Rick, for doing what you do. I'm a very happy GAY Christian - that has been in a wonderful loving relationship with my man Daniel for almost 10 Years, we started going out in our very early 20's, our relationship has lasted longer than many married straight couples, we are a monogomous couple that feel truly blessed to have found each other (was gods work that brought us together:) Its funny I think sooo many against gay relationships are hung up on the "sex" side of things.

Well they aint to connected with the world are they. As there are more hetrosexual couples having "gay" sex than us gays! just by shear numbers. GOD gave us our bodies to enjoy them,as long as we love one another like we do ourselves and GOD - Heaven will be opened to all that follow the simple msg LOVE LOVE AND LOVE !:)

Keep going Rick your website is such a great inspiration for all of us Gay Christians!:) Thanks GOD that I didn't get married and live the lie that so many other men do. I've had Many MARRIED men try and have sexual relations with me! I tell them to P'off and go home to your wife and kids, so who's the biggest sinner ?

Thanks again, Pete J
Oct 21, 2013
 Marriage
by: Nate

When you say you think that marriage is when one flesh is united with another flesh, how do you interpret that from the Bible because it states that "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Eph 5:31. Is this passage dealing with marriage or am I wrong about that? What are you thoughts on this.

Rick's comment: Excellent question. We say that marriage is when flesh joins flesh based on what God tells us in Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5 and 1 Cor 6:16.

Yes, Ephesians 5:31 is also dealing with marriage. The words spoken about Adam and Eve, just quoted by Paul, are spoken literally of marriage; but they have also a hidden mystical sense which describes the union between Christ and the church. The marriage of Adam and Eve was a type of the faithful loving relationship which should exist between all who are born again Christians and Christ as our heavenly bridegroom. That is why Paul says: I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Mar 24, 2014
 Polygamy or Gay Marriage?
by: Henry

It worked for Adam and Eve in the sense that they did not need a wedding ceremony or minister or anything to be considered married, but can it work for people today as well? Can two men or two women marry each other by stating their vows privately, and have their marriage approved by God without actually needing a marriage ceremony, minister, church or rings to seal their marriage? Would such a marriage be blessed by God despite other Christians saying it isn't a real marriage?

Rick's comment: Hi Henry - yes, many gay and lesbian couples do it that way. One problem with that is that an unofficial marriage does not convey the same legal benefits and protections. In federal law alone, there are more than 1100 legal benefits for gays or lesbians who are legally married.

What about polygamy and other types of marriages, does God approve or reject them? (I know that isn't the same thing as my other question.) Sorry, I'm trying to understand by looking at marriage beyond modern culture, and see if such marriages are still valid to God today.

Rick's comment: Polygamy was a biblical family value in ancient times.
Jun 29, 2018
 Fornication
by: Alan Clarke

If all the Bible's references to homosexuality were to be revised or even removed, would we still not be left with the 44 instances (in the KJV of the Bible) of the words "fornication/fornicators" ("porneia" in Greek) which is universally translated by Christian theologians as any form of sexual activity outside of Biblical marriage so obviously includes homosexual sexual acts?

Rick's comment: Hi Alan - The presupposition you bring to this discussion, that the Bible has negative references to homosexuality, is your opinion, not a biblical fact.

What you see as negative references to homosexuality are prohibitions of shrine prostitution. For example,

Shrine prostitutes in Leviticus

Polygamy in the Old Testament is analogous to gay marriage today. Polygamy in the OT was:

1. Culturally accepted,
2. Legal
3. Engaged in by fervent believers in God
4. Outside the Adam and Eve paradigm

Gay marriage in modern times is:

1. Culturally accepted,
2. Legal in many countries
3. Engaged in by fervent believers in God
4. Outside the Adam and Eve paradigm

If polygamy in the OT was not viewed by God as fornication, then it is valid to assert that modern gay marriage is not viewed by God as fornication.
Jun 30, 2018
 Fornication
by: Alan Clarke

Dear Rick,
I'm sorry to say that you have come nowhere near to addressing the issue that I raised.

Firstly, I did not say or imply that I believe the Bible has negative references to homosexuality. I simply pointed out that every dictionary definition of "fornication" states that the word means unlawful sexual intercourse between unmarried people and that therefore it must include sexual activity between homosexual people. Whether it can be argued from the Bible that fornication is inapplicable if homosexuals are married to each other is a different and separate issue. The Christian definition of fornication has always included the meaning of marriage as that between a man and a woman. Thus, I suggested that every reference to homosexuality in the Bible could be re-interpreted or removed but we would still have to deal with the Bible's numerous warnings regarding the sin of fornication, using the Christian definition of it above.

Rick's comment: Hi Alan - If you did not say or imply that you believe... "the Bible has negative references to homosexuality" then why did you twice comment to disagree with me?

Here's what you wrote about homosexuality toward the end of THIS, your second comment.

Alan wrote: "homosexual sexual acts are unacceptable to God."

Alan wrote: "Those who believe that a homosexual lifestyle has God's approval are deceived"

I'm always amazed when commenters write anti-gay comments and then insist they don't believe what they wrote.

You also wrote that "every dictionary definition of fornication means unlawful sexual intercourse between unmarried people"? Fornication also covers using sex to worship false gods, Acts 15:29 and adultery, Matthew 19:9.

Phrasing it, "the Christian definition," is a snarky way of saying that if I disagree with your definition or your opinion of what is Christian, I am not Christian.

Having had my senses exercised to discern good and evil, Hebrews 5:14, I have enough spiritual common sense to know that I can disagree with you on any number of issues and still be a godly Spirit-filled Christian, Ephesians 5:18, who walks in the Spirit, Galatians 5:16.

Secondly, it is abundantly clear from the New Testament and particularly Paul's epistles that Christians are to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15) and that what applied under the Old Covenant no longer applies under the New.

It is unsound theology to use examples of behaviour that were accepted in the Old Testament as our pattern for today. God "overlooked the times of ignorance" (Acts 17:30) and introduced standards for Christians that are considerably higher than they were for Israel or are for unbelievers.

Rick's comment: I agree with you that Christians are not under OT Law, Romans 6:14. Yet you seem not to understand the analogy or the point I made. Since God used polygamists in the OT, I analogize that God can use saved gays and lesbians in the NT.

Since God blessed polygamous marriage in the OT, I analogize that God can bless gay marriage in the NT.

In the OT, polygamy was culturally accepted, legal and engaged in by OT believers in God including great heroes of faith like Abraham, Jacob, Gideon, David and Joash.

In modern times, gay marriage is culturally accepted, legal and engaged in by saved and born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Thirdly, it makes no sense even logically to take an example of conduct from the Old Testament that God now regards as sinful (polygamy) to establish that other totally unrelated behaviour is similar and justified (homosexual marriage). In fact, your argument is self-defeating: if God now calls polygamy a sin, then using your comparison, homosexual marriage must be sinful too.

Rick's comment: You seem to have a hang-up about polygamy. Have you ever read and studied Exodus 21:10-11 or Deuteronomy 21:15-17 or 2 Samuel 12:7-8 or 2 Chronicles 24:2-3?

Are you not aware that on mission fields around the world, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Brethren and many other Christians, have born again and saved polygamist families in their churches? You say God regards polygamy as sinful yet you have no verse of scripture which says that.

You use your inferences (what the Bible doesn't say) from Matthew 19:3-12, (your private opinion) which you read into scripture because scripture never says it, as proof that God regards polygamy as sinful.

That is eisogesis, not exegesis and I believe God regards eisogesis as far more sinful than polygamy because it is the opposite of rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15.

If God did call polygamy a sin, you would have a point and you could produce the verse that says it. Yet you present no verse where He does that while ignoring verses which say the opposite of your private opinion. You misinterpret Matthew 19:9 and want us to believe that your misinterpretation and your misunderstanding is what Jesus actually said.

Additionally, your four analogies carry no weight whatsoever for Christians in that we are not dictated by the world's standards (1,2), "the heart is deceitful" (3) and heterosexual monogamous marriage was re-affirmed by Christ in Matthew 19:3-6 (4).

Four Analogies

Five Analogies

Fourthly, I strongly maintain that unless their conscience is seared (1 Timothy 4:2), truly born again believers KNOW in their spirit without any doubt or question and without reference to anything that the Bible says about it, that homosexual sexual acts are unacceptable to God.

Above all else, the new birth and Christ's life within us reveal truth so that we can say with the Apostle John, "We KNOW that we are of the truth" and "We KNOW the spirit of truth and the spirit of error".

Rick's comment: "Strongly maintaining" something is not an argument from fact or logic. It is an argument from emotion and therefore, useless to those of us who operate in the realm of fact and logic.

Besides which, there you go again, casting your argument in such a way that anyone who disagrees with you is not "truly born again." Since I disagree with you, you imply that my conscience has been seared with a hot iron.

Ripping First John and the apostle John's teaching against unsaved Gnostics and their false teaching, out of it's anti-Gnostic context (and hoping we will not notice that you did that) and assuming John's remarks were aimed at gays, what a trick that is! Your egregious misuse of scripture is too funny for words.

Those who believe that a homosexual lifestyle has God's approval are deceived in that they ignore the truth that the new birth is about becoming "new creatures". Included in the Fall of Man was our sexuality so no one's sexuality is lived out entirely as God intended but thank God that He has redeemed us from the "transgression that resulted in condemnation" and has given new life to those who acknowledge their need to be changed and come humbly to Him in repentance and Biblical faith.

Rick's comment: Again you do it Alan. When I disagree with you on the gay issue, you say that I am deceived and imply that I don’t have the new birth and I don’t have Christ’s life within to reveal the truth as you perceive it.

For disagreeing with you, you dismiss me as deceived and imply that I am unsaved and ignoring the truth.

If I was a baby Christian, that kind of spiritual bullying might impact me. Since I am a mature Christian man, your misuse of scripture simply flags you as a guy who doesn't know what he is talking about biblically.

You seem to believe that the new birth includes a new sexual orientation, so that every new convert will line up with your opinion even though you didn’t get a new sexual orientation when you got born again and neither did anyone else you know.

And then you close out your comment with this gem. Because gays disagree with you on the gay issue, we haven’t (according to you) acknowledged our need to be changed, haven’t come humbly to Him in repentance and biblical faith, because apparently, had we done those things, we would agree with you.

When you don’t have a clearly stated biblical argument, when you don’t have any verse which, in context, says what you believe, instead of changing what you believe, you try to intimidate us with a weird kind of unbiblical, unspiritual bullying, a kind of unspiritual virtue signaling, based not on what the Bible says in context but based instead on your opinion of what the Bible means or ought to say, if it agreed with you.

Sorry Alan. That won’t work here.

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