How can immoral homosexual relationships be Christlike?

by Pastor Bruce
(Arizona)




You've asked an interesting question about the morality of gay relationships. I respond by challenging your basic assumptions in the hope that you will consider the inconsistency of your beliefs.

Have you ever studied Biblical Analogies for modern gay and lesbian partnerships? Did you know that God richly blessed some relationships in the Old Testament which are not accepted by Christians today? You believe that homosexual relationships are immoral. So here's my question for you Pastor Bruce.

Do you believe Abraham and Sarah
were in an immoral relationship?

Before you answer, remember that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which leads us to conclude that God considered their marriage relationship immoral or outside the bounds of propriety. In fact, three times the Bible refers to Abraham as the friend of God, 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23. Abraham married his half-sister Sarah, Genesis 20:2, 12, and enjoyed a blessed lifelong sexual relationship with her, Genesis 17:6-19.

Instead of forcing them to end their incestuous sexual relationship, as many modern Christian Pharisees would do, God blessed Abraham and Sarah's brother-sister marriage with Isaac, the son they longed for and made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, Genesis 17:7, 19, because their relationship was culturally appropriate back then.

Abraham was also married to Hagar and had a son by her, Genesis 16:3-11. Consider the facts. Abraham and Sarah were in an incestuous polygamous marriage which God blessed. After Sarah died Abraham married Keturah. In addition to her, Abraham fathered children by concubines and left an inheritance to those legally recognized children, Genesis 25:1-6, because those relationships were culturally appropriate back then.

Do you believe Abraham was immoral? Do you believe God was immoral for blessing Abraham and Sarah's forbidden marriage?

Do you believe King David was immoral?

David was a bisexual polygamist who spent fifteen years in committed relationship with Jonathan. In addition to Jonathan, David had at least eight wives whose names are listed in the Bible. In addition to those wives, God gave David all of King Saul's wives, 2 Sam 3:2-5, 13-14, 11:27, 12:7-8, 19:5, 1 Chron 14:3, because those relationships were culturally appropriate back then. In addition to his many wives, King David also had concubines because those relationships were culturally appropriate back then, 2 Samuel 5:13.

In the context of Old Testament family values, where polygamy was culturally accepted, the Bible does not view polygamy and men with concubines as adulterers or immoral.

We know that polygamy, a man having more than one wife, was affirmed and blessed in the Old Testament, according to Genesis 4:19, 16:3-4, 29:20-28, 30:4-9, Deuteronomy 21:15-17, 2 Samuel 12:7-8, where God Himself affirms polygamy and 2 Chronicles 24:2-3, where the Holy Spirit affirms polygamy by implication.

Most conservative anti-gay Christians do not view Abraham, Jacob and King David as adulterers even though they were polygamists with multiple spouses plus concubines. The reason is that those relationships were culturally accepted and culturally appropriate back then.

Was God immoral for giving David additional wives when he already had at least eight wives? If Abraham and Sarah were not immoral, if God was not immoral for blessing them with a son, if King David was not immoral, if God was not immoral for giving Saul's wives to David,

Why do you insist that
homosexuals in general are immoral?

Much of what people believe about marriage and immoral relationships has little to do with what the Bible says in context. Instead much of what we believe about marriage is based on culture. In Muslim and some tribal cultures, polygamy is still considered acceptable today. Some relationships were culturally acceptable in the Old Testament which are not culturally acceptable now and vice versa.

If God could bless a brother-sister marriage like Abraham and Sarah, if God could bless polygamous marriages, why do you struggle to believe that God can bless committed gay and lesbian marriages?

You have no verse of scripture in either testament which, in context, says what you so fervently believe about gays. Is it possible that you are wearing the sandals of the scribes and Pharisees, "making the word of God of none effect by your tradition?" Mark 7:13.

Is it possible that you are grieving the heart of God by refusing to affirm the committed partnerships of your gay brothers and lesbian sisters? Jesus is unmistakably clear in Matthew 7:12 that we are to treat others with the same loving regard as we would like to be treated. Paul is crystal clear in Romans 13:9-10 and Galatians 5:14, that loving one's neighbor fulfills the law.

Pastor Bruce, I believe you and God have a major disagreement which you need to iron out with Him. The wonderfully gracious God of the Bible is as kindly disposed and as gracious to gay and lesbian Christians as He was to Abraham and Sarah and to David and his many wives.

I hope you will obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and "study to shew yourself approved unto God..." by providing scriptural answers to these questions, using verses in context instead of wresting verses out of context to prove your tradition. Isolating a verse from its context and insisting it means something it didn't mean in context is a pretext for teaching lies. Looking forward to hearing from you. Please remember:

Scripture cannot mean NOW

what it did not mean THEN.



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Mar 03, 2011
 flip side of the coin
by: Voyce Mistress

One could easily ask, "How can immoral heterosexual relationships be Christlike?" Gay folk have not cornered the market in bad behaviour. Straight folk are not deemed to be innocent of sin simply because of their straightness. Let's be honest. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour in whatever person it is found.

But to be more serious, if the underlying question is "How can ANY gay relationship be Christlike?", we can equally ask, "How can any straight relationship be Christlike?"

In the written record, Jesus is not shown to be involved in a sexual relationship of any kind. We cannot take specific guidance from his romantic actions because none are reported.

We can take guidance from his teachings on how we are to behave with other children of God. We are to love them. We are to care for them. We are to make sure that they have justice. Jesus did not say, "Love one another, unless the other is gay." he did not say, "Care for the poor and downtrodden, unless they are gay."

Jesus said that by their fruits, you would know them. If a relationship shows the fruit of the spirit, as many loving gay relationships do, then you can be sure that the relationship is Christlike regardless of the sexuality of the people in that relationship.
Mar 23, 2011
 What the bible says about homosexuality
by: Anonymous

1 Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers?and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
Mar 23, 2011
 Why are you avoiding the real questions?
by: Rick Brentlinger

Wow Anonymous, way to avoid the questions I asked! Aren't you ever ashamed of yourself for insisting you're right yet avoiding every question which indicates you are not right?

I'm always amused when someone named Anonymous quotes a verse AS IF it applies to gays and lesbians.

1. You have never studied the verse in context.

2. You have no idea which Greek words are used in the verse you quoted.

3. You have no idea of the cultural, doctrinal, historical or religious context.

4. Based on reading the verse once or twice, you've assumed it means what you think it means, without ANY study, and you then use the verse to condemn your gay brothers and lesbian sisters.

On the off-chance you may be interested in truth, here are two pages of in depth discussion of the Greek word, arsenokoitai, which is incorrectly translated, "practicing homosexuality," in the verse you quoted.

Define Arsenokoitai
and Arsenokoites

Arsenokoitai
Apr 01, 2011
 Will those who knowingly sin get to heaven
by: J Matheson

In Genesis, we are told God created man and women and told them to multiply. Gen 1:28
Moreover, in Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth tender sprouts (the herb seeding seed and the fruit tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself) upon the earth; and it was so.
If you believe in creation and God created man and women then homosexuality is not normal. If you believe in evolution, then homosexuality cannot exist.
It stands to reason a race that remained true to it?s nature if that nature is homosexuality would cease to exist since it cannot naturally reproduce.
I do believe that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and that Jesus Christ died for all sins including that of homosexuality.
I also believe that in order to receive salvation one must repent of their sins, repent means to turn away from them. If I am an adulterer and then confess Jesus Christ as Lord, yet will not give up my disobedient life style, have I really repented of sin in the first place?
1John 2:1-6 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked.

Before we become a Christian we are obedient to sin 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that old sinful man is dead and we become alive to Christ. Too many scriptures tell us to sin no more. Regardless of how many scriptures we try to bend to justify our life, one thing still remains true what God calls sin is still sin.

Believe it or not my prayer is that you are right and I am wrong, sadly I cannot find it in scripture to justify a sinful lifestyle and still make it into heaven.
Apr 01, 2011
 Why have you ignored what I wrote above?
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hello J. Matheson-

Aside from the fact that you ignored everything I wrote in this thread and comments, your argument contains a basic misunderstanding of the verses you quoted.

When God says His creation brings forth after its kind He is not addressing the issue of homosexuality. Instead, God is saying that:

lions reproduce lions
dogs reproduce dogs
horses reproduce horses
chickens reproduce chickens
apple trees reproduce apple trees.


To read into such a basic truth your own private opinion that the descendants of Adam and Eve will all be heterosexual, is silly. You are using non sequitur logic - your conclusion does not logically follow from your premise.

Concerning be fruitful and multiply, Genesis 1:28, reasonable people understand that the six thousand year old command to Adam and Eve when they were the only human beings on earth, to be fruitful and multiply, is vastly different today when we have more than seven billion people living on earth. If you are unable to comprehend that vast difference, I have no more arguments to convince you.

Concerning your belief that homosexuals are living in sin, you make the assumption that all homosexuals are living in sinful rebellion against God without presenting ANY verses which, in context, support your opinion. I assume you do not mean to be arrogant yet that is your default position, given that you cannot present ANY verses which, in context, support your opinion.

To answer your question (keeping in mind you made no attempt to answer ANY of the questions I asked), Will those who knowingly sin get to heaven? my answer is, Yes, in the dispensation of the grace of God everyone who is saved and sins knowingly after salvation, WILL get to heaven.

Salvation is based on trusting by grace alone through faith alone in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross alone, as the acceptable payment (propitiation, 1 John 2:2) for our sins.

If you're trusting your ability not to sin willfilly, to get you to heaven, then you're as good as in hell right now. Your works never have been and never will be good enough to get you to heaven. As a mature Christian who has had his senses exercised to discern good and evil, I am well aware that almost every sin you've ever committed as a believer in Jesus Christ has been a willful sin.

Come on J. Matheson, how about dealing with the Bible in context for a change? Dealing honestly with scripture will revolutionize your life.
Apr 01, 2011
 "abusers of themselves with mankind"
by: J Matheson

Rick Brentlinger you wrote the following:
?When God says His creation brings forth after its kind He is not addressing the issue of homosexuality. Instead, God is saying that:

lions reproduce lions
dogs reproduce dogs
horses reproduce horses
chickens reproduce chickens
apple trees reproduce apple trees?

I agree fully with this statement, and since you do as well, how then can homosexuals reproduce after their own kind. If God had created only homosexual men and homosexual women none of us would be here today.

You say I am taking scripture out of context well if I were you I would take a second look at the scriptures.
You said that sinners will go to heaven if they trust in Jesus Christ.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Since Paul is saying and such were some of you, it would stand to reason that once you accept the saving grace of Jesus you are no longer doing such things.

Now since you say the word "Arsenokoitai" is being mistranslated as practicing homosexuals.
No where in the Bible do I see the word ?practicing?

Or in it?s original translation was "abusers of themselves with mankind" depending on which version you use.
Apr 01, 2011
 Abusers of themselves with mankind, continued
by: J Matheson

Rick Brentlinger
OK lets take out the word homosexual and look at what is written in Romans:

Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, proud, braggarts, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, perfidious, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous order of God, that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but have pleasure in those practicing them.

Here scripture is not calling it homosexuality, it does say it is unnatural and those who practice such things are haters of God.

Yes I agree with you that no one will enter heaven by trying to obey the commandments, but neither will anyone who is trying to accept God on their terms.

By the way you forgot to quote the scriptures that show it is OK to willfully sin and still get into heaven.
Apr 01, 2011
 Saved homosexuals are part of God's plan
by: Rick Brentlinger

Arguing that homosexuals cannot reproduce after their kind, therefore God did not make anyone homosexual is space cadet goofy. Being homosexual or heterosexual is about sexual orientation. A human being is still a human being whether heterosexual or homosexual.

Most homosexuals are born to heterosexual parents. If your odd logic is correct, then no heterosexual parents would raise kids who grow up to be gay or lesbian.

Your inability to think clearly springs from your attempt to make the Bible say what you think it ought to say instead of believing what it says in context.

The Bible does not tell us that reproducing after its kind includes sexual orientation or personality traits or hair color. As people have personalities different than their parents, so in about five per cent of the human population, children have a different sexual orientation than their parents. And surely you are aware that many gays and lesbians have biological children?

Concerning your attempt to teach that people can lose their salvation based on 1 Cor 6:9, you need to study your Bible instead of just quoting a verse as if it supports your opinion. A good place to begin your study is my page on the eternal security of born again believers in Jesus Christ, where I provide 32 scriptural reasons why saved people can never lose their salvation.

Concerning arsenokoitai, please read:

Define Arsenokoitai
and Arsenokoites

Arsenokoitai
Apr 01, 2011
 Taking verses out of context is not honest
by: Rick Brentlinger

You are right that scripture does not call anything in Romans 1 homosexuality. I hope you also understand that Romans 1 does not call homosexuality unnatural. What is unnatural is using sex to worship the fertility goddess.

Like many Christians who have never bothered to study the Bible in context, you simply assume that the Bible supports your opinion. Based on your lack of study and your false assumptions, you wrongly conclude that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals hate God. Strange, very strange, since even Jesus Himself says some people, called eunuchs in the Bible, are born gay, Matthew 19:11-12.

Concerning the context of Romans 1, please read:

What is the context
of Romans 1?

Did Aristides link Romans 1
to shrine prostitution?
Apr 02, 2011
 Not all who call them selves christians are followers of Christ
by: J Matheson

Rick Brentlinger you quoted this verse saying God has made people gay!
Mat 19:11 But He said to them, Not all receive this word, except those to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs who were born so from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven's sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.
You have got to be joking; you tell me I take scripture out of context to prove my point. You not only take it out of context you bend it into a pretzel to try and make it say something it does not in order to support a lifestyle you have chosen for yourself in spite of what all the scriptures say against it.
Are you saying all gays are ?eunuchs? or only the gays that are eunuchs will get into heaven? Maybe you are correct in that assumption, since if you were all eunuchs then maybe you might not sin however according to you living according to God?s word means nothing.
Since all you need to do is believe Jesus is whom he says he is and we are not responsible for our actions then Satin will also be in heaven since we know he believes Jesus is the son of God.
One other point you are correct in saying being straight will not get you into heaven. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will do that. That personal relationship also means following the commands of Christ. By the way according to 2 Timothy that means all scripture not only the parts you like or in your case the part you can twist.
Luk 6:46 And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
James 1:21-27 Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.
But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man studying his natural face in a mirror.
For he studied himself and went his way, and immediately he forgot what he was like.
But whoever looks into the perfect Law of liberty and continues in it, he is not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work. This one shall be blessed in his doing.
If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Apr 02, 2011
 Enough of your silliness
by: Rick Brentlinger

I wonder why you have refused to answer ANY of the questions I asked and why you are unwilling to learn new information? I find your refusal to engage disappointing but sadly, that is often the case when professing christians write to this website.

I do commend you for using a name, possibly your real name. Most of the anti-gay christians who write to me don't have enough courage or conviction to do that.

You have demonstrated in four long Comments that you cannot answer the questions or discuss the facts, therefore I see no reason to continue this.

I do encourage you to forsake your works-based religious beliefs and in a Biblical way, receive God's gift of eternal salvation by getting saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Once you've done that your heart will rejoice.
May 17, 2011
 I must say, Rick Brentlinger demonstrates some ignorance
by: Ock Bock

This is regarding your assumption that one can get saved, continue to live in sin, and still go to heaven. You are wrong and the Bible says it.

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/if-we-accept-jesus-savior-can-we-then-sin-all-we-want
May 17, 2011
 Your straw man argument is not honest
by: Rick Brentlinger

Ock Bock, I hope you are not being intentionally dishonest but instead are ignorant or just imprecise in your thinking. You have set up a straw man argument, you then accuse me of making the straw man argument you set up and then you accuse me of being wrong, as if I teach the falsehood CARM debunks.

Of course, I never made the argument you accuse me of making. I do hope you will continue to read, study and believe the Bible.
May 20, 2011
 From the Bible...
by: Anonymous

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. From 1 Corinthians chapter 6.

That's pretty straight forward. The key here is some people were homosexuals and a number of sins but they changed. God will not tolerate these sins, homosexuality included as it says they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Actually, according to Romans 1:18-31 homosexuality is judgment on people who will not honor the true God and instead make up their own God. The scriptures do not lie. There you have it. BTW stop twisting scripture to support the lifestyle. Scripture no where affirms that it is okay.
May 21, 2011
 Stupid is as stupid does
by: Rick Brentlinger

Do you Anonymous dummies ever get tired of ripping scripture out of context? Are you really so lazy you feel no need to study to shew yourselves approved unto God? 2 Timothy 2:15.

On the off-chance you develop a love for truth, check the NavBar under, What The Bible Says, and do some reading. You will be amazed. Embracing God's truth does wonders for your spiritual life.
Jul 25, 2011
 Twisted Scripture
by: Russell

Where is Jesus, Rick? Does God talk to you, and I'm not talking about reading scripture. I think you have responded to those who have tried to help you understand truth in a rude and catty manner, definitely not Christ like. If you have read the New Testament, you'd know that there are numerous scriptures telling us that we can overcome sin and must be must be obedient to God to enter and stay in the Kingdom of God. Jesus told those that he healed "go and sin no more". Read Hebrews 10:26-31 and try to tell someone that they can willfully go on sinning and expect to go to heaven. You have totally misinterpreted the scriptures and made up fairy tails trying to justify the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuals and all others who continue to live in sin will find out that they have been misled and wind up in a hell of fire outside the presence of God.
Aug 25, 2011
 Get a clue, Buy a vowel, Do something!!!
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hey Russell, you've demonstrated in email after email to me that you are incapable of handling Bible verses in context.

No matter how many anathemas you pronounce, ("I speak as a fool," 2 Cor 12:23), I am still saved eternally (John 10:28-29), sealed by the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14), already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6), sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:23) and rejoicing in the never-ending love of Christ my Savior (John 13:1).

I am so eternally secure I could swing out over hell on a rotten rope and spit in the devil's eye. God is blessing us with souls saved and GLBT Christians growing and becoming disciples.

Do you have any spiritual fruit in your life? Are you leading your gay brothers and lesbian sisters to saving faith in Jesus Christ?
Aug 31, 2011
 You are so blind and lost
by: Kyle P.

Frankly Mr. Rick you are so blind and lost...

Jesus is the greatest person you could ever know, so gracious, so kind, so good, and loving... Jesus loves you Mr. Rick...

I pray you remember that when you finally wake up I will be praying for your salvation Rick. Be blessed, and get saved my soon to be brother in Christ.

ps. I assume from your view point you might think I'm being sarcastic but I'm not this was and is heart felt.
Sep 03, 2011
 Your sarcasm is noted
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hey sweetie, your method of witnessing by insult, calling me blind and lost and ignoring my personal testimony of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, is weird yet not at all unusual for anti-gay christians.

You recognized that your words are sarcastic as evidenced by your closing comment in which you deny being sarcastic.

I hope at some point in your life you will man up and accept responsibility to study the scriptures (2 Tim 2:15) instead of insisting you know what they mean without study.
Sep 03, 2011
 Think what you like about my comment
by: Anonymous

Think what you like bout my comment your not me you can't tel me if I was sarcastic our not men judge by outward appearance

And my comment about you thinking I'm being sarcastic was completely correct. Your point of view is obviously very skewed skewed enuff to think being gay is not sinful. Skewed enuff to think someone who is unrepentant is a bold face sin is STIll saved

I don't doubt your previous salvation I know you have back peddled into sin and lost said salvation

Your right this particular message isn't as lovey duvy but it is still out of love for you sir.

Oops, this comment is from me, Kyle.
Oct 17, 2011
 fndgn
by: Anonymous

"Scripture cannot mean NOW
what it did not mean THEN."

Perfectly worded. And all I have to say to that is new mana. We can't rely on wisdom of the past, we have to constantly be reaching out for God's guidance. New mana.
Oct 26, 2011
 Utter Foolishness
by: Kyle P.

"New Mana" if that is not the most satanic thing ive ever seen u write on here idk what is.

Frankly just like adam was foolish enuff in the beginning to think he could hid from God u are also way to blinded by sin to see what ur doing is wrong. and im SURE u think ur doing the righteous thing but your wrong. your loved but way wrong.

Proverbs 21:2
All a man's ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Matthew 5:17-18: ?Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. (not destory in exodus were it condems it.) For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.?

you have turned from sound doctrine to false teaching to soothe your lusts.

mark 10:6
But 'God made them male and female' from the beginning of creation. (here Jesus is talking about marriage He makes no mention of gays and the only time the bible EVER talks about gays is when its condomning it as sin, even if u are correct about ur ONE verse with the enuchs (which ur not) it hardly counteracts every single other condeming verse in the bible. Jesus never spoke of gays.)

I Cor. 6:9, 10
6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God

You cannot add or subtract anything from the bible. The bible is God's word now and forever. God is done with adding to the bible, He Especially will not add things that the ENTIRE book is against. we will not contradict Himself nor change Himself or His words. He is eternal and unchanging. Gods word is God to say that It changes is to say He changes to say that is blasemphy. God is eternal and therefore always socially morraly and defiantly relivant to todays society. His word is good now then and forever.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

?For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book?
?Revelation 22:18-19
Oct 26, 2011
 Utter Foolishness 2 of 2
by: Kyle P.

Galatians 1:8-9 Amplified Bible
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

9As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!...

God bless u i apologize i have not been praying for u as much as i should be ill try better. Good night God bless. be a wise man and take correction well. God loves a teachable soul
Oct 26, 2011
 Oops
by: Kyle P.

Oops I'm sorry Mr Rick those last two comments were supposed to go to fndgn not you pardon me plz
Oct 31, 2011
 Him without sin cast the first stone - Jesus
by: Anonymous

I have read all the comments and have become burdened by the arguments. Many of the religious teachers questioned Christ and even called him him a devil. Simply because he brought change. Christ calls us to relationship and any change to be done is thru the power of the Holy Spirit.

No man is unworthy of Christ's love if he accepts Christ as his personal Saviour. It is not up to us to reject anyone, it is the believer's duty to love his neighbour as he loves himself. If u don't wish for man to judge u , don't judge anyone else.

Any human who accepts Christ in his/ her heart is a new creature. Let God do his work and teach us who we are in him. None of us are without sin, so who is anyone to condemn another. He who is without sin cast the first stone. There are too many people trying to be God. Peace.
Nov 13, 2011
 The Bible states that homosexuals will not enter the gates of heaven
by: Jeremiah Eigner

The Bible clearly states in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination. It breaks the Holiness Code. No one is born a homosexual. That is a lie straight from hell. And people should love the homos but not tolirate it. It is not of God. Remember Sodom? God wiped the place out.

Even before the Ten Commandments were even released. Even in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 states, "Niether the sexual immoral nor idolaters nor adulters nor male prostitutes nor homosexuals.... will inherit the kingdom of God."

God made a man and a women to love each other and to marry. The Bible also says that sexual activity is for creation purpososes, as in trying to reproduce. Can a man get a man pregnet? Can a woman get a woman pregenet? No, it is not naturual, and God does not want homosexuality.. not even in his own children.

I am not here to condem but only to speak thr real truth. Pastors should not say its ok to be a homo. Listen to God's perfect word.
Now if you want to repent i will have a prayer for you to say:

Dear Jesus, I ask for your forgivness of all my sins, transgressions/ and iniguity. I ask for you to deliver me from any spirit that is not your Holy Spirit. I ask that you deliver me of everything, sexual immorality, and homosexualality. I want to turn away from my human nature and i want to be born again and baptized with your Holy ffire oh Lord. Fill me with your Holy Spirit and burn all the garbage from the past. Guide my Holy Spirit. I also ask for you to forgive me for me greaving you Father God and Holy Spirit. I thank you Jesus for what you have doown for me. In your precios name Jesus amen.
Jan 15, 2012
 Good grief
by: Anonymous

The tone in most of these comments seems to be:

"The English Bible uses a certain word to describe something. Therefore I am free to ignore any and all reference to any and all of the original languages and context, and assume that any word translated as "homosexual" must refer to anything and everything having to do with the current understanding of homosexuality as an orientation because *my* understanding of the *English* word is automatically the only correct and valid one.

Any and all attempts to understand the nuances of the original context are merely "twisting" scripture to justify "sin", because a surface reading of an English-translated verse is the only valid and correct reading. Following are Bible proof-texts condemning false teaching, unsound doctrine, and un-repentantace which really have nothing to do with the issue at hand but which make me sound right and you sound wrong."

I'll try to be brief.

Scripture clearly says that God destroyed Sodom for the sin of arrogance, pride, inhospitality, and brutality (gang-rape) visited upon strangers. See Ezekiel 16:48-49, Isaiah 13:19, and Jeremiah 23:14; 49:18, 50:40. Also Luke 9:51-56 and 10:8-12, where Jesus himself explicitly makes the link between Sodom's inhospitality and towns that were unfriendly toward his disciples. You won't find homosexuality listed anywhere.

The context of the two Leviticus verses has to do with the cultic practices of the Egyptians and the Canaanites, specifically concerning Molech. Which is why one finds a verse prohibiting sacrificing one's children to Molech (Leviticus 21) included with a bunch of verses about sex. Sexual promiscuity with temple prostitutes (of either gender) and the sacrifice of children were the two primary means by which Molech was worshiped.

The word "abomination" in Hebrew is "to'evah", which means something closer to "ritual impurity" and was almost always associated with specifically idolatrous practices.

Romans 1 condemns idolaters, not homosexual people. Note how they are "given over" to "unnatural" lusts. In order to be given over to something, you had to start somewhere else. Clearly this refers to heterosexual people indulging in same-sex orgies to satisfy mere lust. Do not make the mistake of Job's "friends", and assume that because a person appears (to you) to be "cursed" by God, that person must be harboring sin in their hearts. Not every homosexual person is a secret idolator, and it is arrogant and hurtful for you to assume so. Ask Job's friends.

The Corinthians and Timothy verses both use the word "arsenokoitai", which our host keeps trying to get you to look at. It is used only twice in the entire NT, and maybe a dozen times in other writings, and most likely referred to men having sex with young boys. The early church fathers favored this interpretation. Do your research!!
Jun 22, 2012
 Wow, such hate.
by: Ismaila

I am shocked by the hate displayed by the anti-gay people on this page.

Rick's comment: I am also shocked. Arrogance and ignorance are not fruits of the Spirit, although you'd never know that by reading what some Christians think about gays.
Jul 12, 2012
 Faulty reasoning
by: Mike

God blessed David. David was a man after God's own heart. David murdered, committed adultery and conspired to cover up his deeds.

Rick's comment: Why have you ignored what I wrote? Why have you not answered the questions in the article? You're not making yourself look good.

Maybe we should have "murderous christian 101", or maybe "adukterous christian 101". It is clear that God has blessed a wide range of sinners, because everyone is a sinner. God used a man by the name of Job as an example to Satan as one that feared God and eschewed evil. Married to a woman, not hooked up with a man.

When kids have their first cig, they usually hide. Criminals like darkness, easier to hide. Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. If homosexuality is pleasing in the sight of God, why do you need to "come out of the closet"?

Rick's comment: Because false teaching by churches about gays encourages people to bully young teenage gays and sometimes kill them. Because christians and preachers lie about what the Bible says. Because preachers rip verses out of context to condemn gays. Because gays don't want to live a hypocritical life so allegedly moral christians can continue to spread their lies.

Why do homosexuals have a higher number of psychological issues, suicides, addictions and early deaths? Denmark study where they are really open and welcoming about that particular sin.

Rick's comment: The Danish study was flawed and its results falsely represented by FRC and other anti-gay christian groups. Here is just one brief article - check out the links in the article too. More info is available is you're really looking for truth. The Danish study.

Why spend so much time trying to prove that lifestyle is okay? Never once in 31 years of marriage did I spend any kind of time proving marriage to my wife was honorable and good in God's sight.

Rick's comment: If you're the Mike I think you are, you have good reason not to use your last name, especially in relation to your sexual conduct during your 31 year marriage.

Say it enough, people will believe it; if not, at least you will. You used to condemn sin, now you are justifying it. You have come a long way. Gives a whole new meaning to "BTR Club."

Rick's comment: If you took the time to read my website you would discover I still take a Biblical view of sin, just the same as I always have.

So, tell me - why did you write to me without using your full name? What are you ashamed of? What are you trying to hide? I am open and upfront about who I am and what I believe. Why are you not open and upfront? Why are you ashamed to put your full name with your criticism of me?
Jul 16, 2012
 Somemore scripture
by: Jeremiah Eigner

Listen, i am not here to judge, i am here to open your eyes like Jesus did.
Look up romans chapter 1-21 all the way through 26.
And dont try to say its mistranslation. If you still refuse to repent then you have made your lifestyle an idol before God.
And doesnt that break one of the 10 commandments.
Please repent... i am not focused on homosexualaity itself. there are many issues that we must deal with.
God loves everyone no matter what.
He is unconditional and he wants you to live life for him.
Allow his spirit into you. Give up all your heart.
let his all consuming fire burn out the things of this world and allow God to set you apart.
I used to be a satinist. I hated God and everyone around me. But then God showed me his love. Let God controll you not religion or pet doctrines.
If you still dont beleave that homosexualality is wrong than i have nothing more to say. Just know that no one is born gay.... it is a descision. I say all of this without judgement but only in God's love. Give your ife to God. That is what we are created for.

Rick's comment: Hi Jeremy - the Romans 1:26-27 passage is aimed at temple prostitution, not lesbians and gay men. Only if you rip it out of context can it be mis-interpreted to refer to gays.

I am so thankful that you got saved and that you want others to get saved. That is wonderful!

How To Witness.
Jul 17, 2012
 What Mike do you think I am?
by: Mike

Normal relations between a husband and wife are bad and relations between two guys is good? Woe unto him that calls good evil, and evil good. Everyone sins, don't justify it and promote it...

PS-- you are not saying that homosexual males have the same life expectancy as married straight males? Psychological issues, suicides; check any and all statistics. No hate, just fact. GRID.

Rick's comment: Mike - I edited out some of your comments. I'm not going to allow you to insinuate sinful living on my part while hiding behind your 31 year marriage and the anonymity of not using your full name. Your behavior isn't honest. I thought better of you than that.

If you want to talk, I'm easy to contact. Isn't it time for you to man up and use your full name? This is, I believe, the third comment you've made attacking me. The first one you made Anonymously and I deleted it. Two more you made using only a first name.

The garbled "facts" with which you close your comments indicates lack of solid information on your part. NARTH and Dr. Cameron are not honest or reliable or trustworthy sources.

You're welcome to contact me if you'd like instead of hiding your identity while questioning my integrity.
Jul 17, 2012
 Hmm
by: Kyle P.

You know we disagree but I like you and the way you handle yourself on here
Apr 14, 2014
 What's easier?
by: Ralph

I think it is easier to convince an alcoholic to stop drinking than to convince a Christian that pork is still prohibited to eat even by Christ. Now I think it's easier to convince a Christian to stop eating pork than to convince a homosexual that such lifestyle is unacceptable. Either or both are sins before God and both are abominations so stop arguing with each other as both are committing basically the same abominations before God. For the word of God only calls abomination these two thing to eat unclean animals and homosexuality. Just my 2 cents I only got here by accident so no offense to both of you now you can defend each other's abomination.

Rick's comment: LOL - okay Ralph, okay.
Apr 14, 2014
 Did Ralph read the Bible?
by: Kyle P.

Did ralph read the bible? I mean cmon.

Col 2:16 - So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not, a. seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, b. if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Apr 14, 2014
 How do these verses support your view?
by: Kyle P.

How do verses support you - 2 Sam 3:2-5, 13-14, 11:27, 12:7-8, 19:5, 1 Chron 14:3.

You say God gave him these wives (btw yes david etc would be wretchedly sinful adulterers, just like the bible says: ALL have sinned)

1) The first says nothing bout God Giving him the wives

2) Nor the second

Rick's comment: Hi Kyle - thanks for reading and thinking about these verses. Please read 2 Samuel 12:7-8

3) If anything, anything, in the third the only thing which is stated is that the Lord was displeased. That is not helping your point.

4) Sure at face value you would have a point from 12:7-8 but you do not. David had just murdered a man and stolen a wife, this clearly not an affirmation, but irony.

Do you ignore deut 17:17 do not have many wives?

Rick's comment: Kyle, you seem to believe that Deu 17:17 means polygamy is wrong and they were only allowed one wife. If that interpretation is correct, then that interpretation also means that they could only have one horse, Deu 17:16 and only one piece of gold and one piece of silver, Deu 17:17.

Doesn't it make more sense to conclude that "not multiply wives unto himself" means LOTS of wives, like Solomon had, 1 Kings 11:1-5?

Look at the constant view of marriage via God and Jesus on earth (1 man one 1 woman only). Not only those but more, but forget that, lets say God allowed it regardless of the verses that say its sin.

Rick's comment: The clobber passages only say it's sin if you ignore the biblical cultural doctrinal historical linguistic and religious context.

It would then be an action like that of divorce, allowed at that time Only cuz ppl were to wretched to do any better.

Rick's comment: So you are making the same point I make, that culture is important and some things that were culturally accepted back then are not accepted today and some things not culturally acceptable back then are acceptable today.

5) i dont see how any of these verses support you. I cant conceive of one, at least with 4) i could see a way.

6) how in The world does the last verse support your idea?

Rick's comment: 1 Chron 14:3 shows that David had multiple wives.
Apr 14, 2014
 Sorry if this posted multi-times
by: Kyle P.

Sorry if these are posted multi times. It doesnt seem to be going thru. Forgive me plz, dont mean to spam.

Rick's comment: Hi Kyle - no problem. Due to the filthy, idiotic, mean-spirited, stupid, vile, vituperative, vulgar comments we receive from God's gentle people, no comment goes live on this website until I have personally read and okayed it.
Apr 14, 2014
 Imma address other answers first
by: Kyle P.

Imma address all of the other answers before I deal with the deut one

Your 1st and 5th) i did i still dont see how all these other verses help you. Yes, it shows he had many wives, but that wasnt your point, your point was that God endorsed it and gave it to him. The bible also records davids murder, God didnt endorse that, and wed know that even if God never said anything against it. Thou shant kill. Not a one of those verses even mentions God except 2, and of the 2, one is off topic.

3) flat out disagree with that

4) yes and no. You take the inch and go a mile whereas I stay within the inch. Divorce, tho allowed, was still spoken of as sin by Jesus Himself. Also never in the bible was something allowed then that is now sin in the NT. Stoning to death sinners is not now sin, but still just. Do we do it? No, but thats solely because it has been postponed till judgment day or the punishment was taken for the person by Jesus.

2) horses back then were not used as a means of anything but war. So yes, id say one if any horses isnt out of line. Also, for the money it is expressly different. It clearly adds excessive to the verse. We may not have excessive money, not no money at all. Id disagree, seeing as no where in the bible is a poly relationship ever sanctioned or endorsed. The Only endorsments are for single male to single female.

Rick's comment: Hi Kyle - please read it again. We go by what the Bible says in context, not by what the Bible is presumed to teach. Here is what the Bible says in 2 Samuel 12:7-8.

"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."

And in 1 Chronicles 24:2-3 - "And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest. And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters."

It is a simple matter of believing what the Bible says in context.
Apr 19, 2014
 The Author of Article
by: Louise Madeline

I'm curious. Who is Pastor Bruce of Arizona? Do you have any background on him? Credentials? By the way, I noticed.... he doesn't use his full name either? One might consider THAT omission rather obscure and untrustworthy. Have you considered that?

Being as it's so close to every Christian's favorite holiday, I'd like to wish you and everyone else a blessed Easter.

Rick's comment: Hi Louise - I don't have contact info for Pastor Bruce. When we corresponded, it was three or four years ago. His views are representative of so many Christians who oppose gays and gay rights.

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